Have you considered rescinding/renouncing (second class) citizenship of a repressive criminal organization?

[Obadele Kambon]

...including, but not limited to the united states, united kingdom, france, belgium, portugal, holland, germany, kwk?

[Jujamea]

No I have not considered it. I am keeping my us passport for traveling purposes.

[Obadele Kambon]

@Jujamea, I think you hit the heart of the issue in your post which, in other terms, may be a simple cost-benefit analysis on a personal level. I think where we are as a race in general, practical/expediency issues trump anything ideological, philosophical, kwk.
While the majority of Black people may actually love the u.s., for those who don't have an overt flag-waving expressed love, the benefits of citizenship seem to outweigh any real or perceived costs. What are other real or perceived benefits of continued association with the u.s. that you can think of? (infrastructure, currency, protection)
Hypothetically, what would be "costs" that may, on a personal level, cause you to consider breaking the continued association?

[Jujamea]

@Jujamea, I think you hit the heart of the issue in your post which, in other terms, may be a simple cost-benefit analysis on a personal level. I think where we are as a race in general, practical/expediency issues trump anything ideological, philosophical, kwk.
While the majority of Black people may actually love the u.s., for those who don't have an overt flag-waving expressed love, the benefits of citizenship seem to outweigh any real or perceived costs. What are other real or perceived benefits of continued association with the u.s. that you can think of? (infrastructure, currency, protection)
Hypothetically, what would be "costs" that may, on a personal level, cause you to consider breaking the continued association?

Benefits side, real benefits to me are ability to travel to most countries on earth, access to employment opportunities, and access to western capital markets. Perceived benefits include access and proximity to family and friends and infrastructure. To me infrastructure is, roads, bridges, plumbing, central air, telco and of course, swimming pools!
Cost side, I think the "1984" police state that is slowly coming online is a perceived deal breaker for me. I am still evaluating whether the loyalty aspect of my personality or my conditioned loyalty is the factor in what is a real deal breaker for me.

[Obadele Kambon]

Benefits side, real benefits to me are ability to travel to most countries on earth, access to employment opportunities, and access to western capital markets. Perceived benefits include access and proximity to family and friends and infrastructure. To me infrastructure is, roads, bridges, plumbing, central air, telco and of course, swimming pools!
Cost side, I think the "1984" police state that is slowly coming online is a perceived deal breaker for me. I am still evaluating whether the loyalty aspect of my personality or my conditioned loyalty is the factor in what is a real deal breaker for me.

I really appreciate your honesty and candor in answering. Most Afrikans with a historical/current/future understanding may shy away from the apparent contradiction that comes with knowing that these governments are some of the most demonstrably evil entities in the history of hue-manity (i.e. "from the same government that brought you chattel enslavement, continued penal enslavement, lynchings, police death squads/brutality, genocide, racism and more comes...the new and improved martial law police state!" **crowd cheers**) yet "choosing" to remain a part of such governments.

I remember back in 2000 when I was here in Ghana for study abroad touting the value of being Afrikan in random conversations, continental Afrikans would simply ask the question "well, are you going back?" It was a simple question, but it spoke volumes towards their understanding of contradictions like "well, I guess being Afrikan is good, but not THAT good and I guess amerikkka is bad but not THAT bad". That's also not to say you rescind your citizenship and the next day all continental Afrikans cheer for you that you are now contradiction-free or that they are, but it highlights some issues in being Afrikan on purpose (+genotype and phenotype) and ulterior selectivity vs being African by 'accident' (+genotype and phenotype) and doing things that are Afrikan not because you 'choose' to do so but you just happened to be born on the continent.

I think your real/perceived benefits make sense. Some of those exist in Afrika, well, just about all to some extent. Where they don't exist or need to be improved, i think one's personal cost/benefit analysis would have to come out right before Afrikans of the diaspora who specialize in engineering and other such fields would really consider being a part of that building (i.e. the resurrection/direction-setting of Afrika). For now, most of our Afrikan resources (work, time, energy, money) go toward maintenance and building of the repressive criminal governments and ensuring that they get a firmer grasp on world dominance.

I hear you on the police state. I don't see, on any large level, the threat of the ever-building martial law police state as being 'scary enough' to make Afrikans perceive that cost as outweighing the real/perceived benefits. Typically, the mentality is that "you got jailed/shot in the back by the police/firebombed, but that won't happen to ME! (because I have a degree, i'm a law-abiding taxpayer, i have a good job, kwk)". It's very hard to inculcate the "if they come for me in the morning..." mentality.

Could you go a bit more into the "loyalty" and "conditioned loyalty". Do you mean loyalty to the repressive criminal governments or loyalty to your race?

[Jujamea]

I think your real/perceived benefits make sense. Some of those exist in Afrika, well, just about all to some extent. Where they don't exist or need to be improved, i think one's personal cost/benefit analysis would have to come out right before Afrikans of the diaspora who specialize in engineering and other such fields would really consider being a part of that building (i.e. the resurrection/direction-setting of Afrika). For now, most of our Afrikan resources (work, time, energy, money) go toward maintenance and building of the repressive criminal governments and ensuring that they get a firmer grasp on world dominance.

I hear you on the police state. I don't see, on any large level, the threat of the ever-building martial law police state as being 'scary enough' to make Afrikans perceive that cost as outweighing the real/perceived benefits. Typically, the mentality is that "you got jailed/shot in the back by the police/firebombed, but that won't happen to ME! (because I have a degree, i'm a law-abiding taxpayer, i have a good job, kwk)". It's very hard to inculcate the "if they come for me in the morning..." mentality.

Could you go a bit more into the "loyalty" and "conditioned loyalty". Do you mean loyalty to the repressive criminal governments or loyalty to your race?

When I spoke of loyalty based on my personality, I am speaking to an understanding about myself and how I in past and current instances, will stay with, or continue to side with some group, process, or way because I some times can be "all or nothing". If I commit to something, I will stick with it through thick and thin just because of that commitment I have made.
When I speak of "conditioned loyalty" I am speaking of the programming from society.
When I speak about these two loyalties versus each other, I am asking myself, " Am I choosing not to rescind my citizenship from the USA because of my conditioned loyalty AND/OR my personal internal loyalty to a country that I was born and has provided me a certain way of life, yet has a disturbing history?"
I have learned that my "personal loyalty" can work for/against me and for me in certain situations and things. That is what I was talking about with that situation.

[Yaw Asare Aboagye]

It's very hard to leave something you're so use to to something that you believe will be entirely different from what one is conditioned. Even if you know that conditioning is damaging to you and you're family. That is the level of deprogramming that we must get for the vast majority of Afrikans in the diaspora (particularly the one's in the u.s.). I likenly it to the battered woman syndrome, her husband is beating her mercilessly but she doesn't leave and she may die because she won't.

[Obadele Kambon]

When I spoke of loyalty based on my personality, I am speaking to an understanding about myself and how I in past and current instances, will stay with, or continue to side with some group, process, or way because I some times can be "all or nothing". If I commit to something, I will stick with it through thick and thin just because of that commitment I have made.
When I speak of "conditioned loyalty" I am speaking of the programming from society.
When I speak about these two loyalties versus each other, I am asking myself, " Am I choosing not to rescind my citizenship from the USA because of my conditioned loyalty AND/OR my personal internal loyalty to a country that I was born and has provided me a certain way of life, yet has a disturbing history?"
I have learned that my "personal loyalty" can work for/against me and for me in certain situations and things. That is what I was talking about with that situation.

I understand. Personally, I was raised NOT to have any loyalty to the repressive criminal governments. Because of this, I've never stood up for or sung the "national anthem", "pledge of allegiance" or any such thing. I was also able to articulate why I don't do these things or celebrate whiteydays in early childhood.
Maybe one's upbringing has an influence on the 'loyalty' factor. This conditioned loyalty may be a conscious or subconscious factor for Afrikans with a historical/current/future understanding as well as those without.

It's very hard to leave something you're so use to to something that you believe will be entirely different from what one is conditioned. Even if you know that conditioning is damaging to you and you're family. That is the level of deprogramming that we must get for the vast majority of Afrikans in the diaspora (particularly the one's in the u.s.). I likenly it to the battered woman syndrome, her husband is beating her mercilessly but she doesn't leave and she may die because she won't.

I heard a comedian refer to it as "an uncle who put you through school but who molested you". Also that Black people being in amerikkka "started off kinda rough, but now it's gettin' kinda good". Such, apparently, is the paradox. I remember Amos Wilson speaking at length about the battered wife analogy. Particularly due to barack obama, i don't see any deprogramming going down for those in the u.s....it'll take generations to get any kind of sense on a large level barring being thrown into concentration camps and even then...

Can you also speak to any specific real or perceived benefits and also to any existing or potential past, current or future costs that may outweigh those benefits?

[Obadele Kambon]

When I consider this question, I think about the historical record and what one will take to one's grave. Like 1,000 years from now, how will it be understood that these "people" killed 100,000,000+ Afrikans yet the descendants who survived refused to separate from them even when they had the opportunity to. I think that sometimes the incredulous way we may look at the Moors bringing civilization to europe or the role of Africans in enslavement, we look at these things separate from real life issues of real/perceived personal cost/benefit analyses. In terms of the current discussion, like the proverb says, the cow grazes where it is tied. I'm reminded about an anecdote about how elephants are trained in the circus from small with huge chains. They come to believe that what's around their ankle can never be broken so that when they're adults, they can be held with a tiny rope and stake in the ground. A colleague of mine in a survival training organization gave an analogy of a fish on a hook which struggles on end until it comes to believe that it can't get off the hook. At which point you can walk through the water to it and club it without resistance.

For me, I think my reasons for desiring to sever that tie are mainly ideological/philosophical...for consistency's sake and for the historical record. I tend to think about things in 100-1000 year increments and 2150-25800 year cycles. How will history (our descendants) see us with krakkka names, citizenship ties to these criminals and the whole host of contradictions. True, a lot is intergenerational, but how much feces do we intend to heap on our descendants and at what point do we start taking care of these contradictions one by one so that our descendants can take us even further.

@Jujamea and @Yaw Asare Aboagye, I appreciate your contributions to the thread thus far and hopefully we'll get other Afrikans to weigh in with their perspectives on this issue.

[Yaw Asare Aboagye]

We're all a little drug addicted to some extent. Only unlike a crackhead this addiction is more prevasive, we're addicted to an alien culture that is against our very nature.