Dr. Josef Ben Levi on language and epistemology-gctid156779

[Heru Djet]

Yesterday during the ASCAC Midwest Region Medew Netcher class, Dr. Josef Ben Levi offered an interesting discussion of this statement [ATTACH=CONFIG]9000[/ATTACH], which can be transliterated as “Dr nbw” or written phonetically as “Djer nebew”. Dr is a complex term which refers limits as well as to the expansive bounds of the universe–quite simply, the all. nbw is a plural of the word nb, which the Egyptologists typically translate as “lord”. This begs the question of whether such an idea is indigenous to ancient Kemet, and whether such an idea is resonate with the use of nb in the written texts. Baba Bonotchi Montgomery, in his insightful book “All the Transformations of Ra” refers to nb as “possessor”.

In his class yesterday, Dr. Ben Levi stated that this term (Dr nbw) could be translated as “‘lord’ of all”, but more accurately it refers to “The force that conveys everything seen and unseen in the universe and beyond”. Again a very interesting idea that is quite resonate with Baba Bonotchi’s points from his talk “There are no gods in Kemet”, in addition to Prof. Rkhty Amen’s discourse on the nature of netcher (nTr). What I most appreciated about this, though little time was spent on it, is that it seeks to push us beyond the false notion of equivalency when dealing with cultural notions, and the need to deal with language as a medium for understanding them.

http://kamaurashid.khemenu.com/?p=187
                            Attached files  

[Ɔbenfo Ọbádélé]

I definitely have to get to translating mdw ntr into contemporary Kmtyw languages.
That would definitely be in the vein of pushing us beyond false equivalencies with eureurasian notions. Thanks for the insights on this word.

[Agya Yaw]

This is one of the reasons why I'd advise learning another Kmtyw language first rather than moving directly to Mdw Ntr. We need to understand cultural under/overpinnings to get a true idea what is being said. It seems from my observations we are still in the "trying to figure this thing out" mode with Mdw Ntr. It seems to me knowing another Kmtyw language(s) would greatly help one move beyond this stage. Since there is a cultural (linguistic to some degree) continuity between other Kmtyw languages and Mdw Ntr. Interpretations seems to be so varied when it comes to Mdw Ntr at times. Or I "think" this is what's being said. Instead of, I know what's be said. I have felt it like we're saying, "well you know how to add, subtract, multiply and divide, now let's take on calculus". We need to learn algebra, geometry and trigonometry before we get there.

[Heru Djet]

Agya Yaw;158397 wrote: This is one of the reasons why I'd advise learning another Kmtyw language first rather than moving directly to Mdw Ntr. We need to understand cultural under/overpinnings to get a true idea what is being said. It seems from my observations we are still in the "trying to figure this thing out" mode with Mdw Ntr. It seems to me knowing another Kmtyw language(s) would greatly help one move beyond this stage. Since there is a cultural (linguistic to some degree) continuity between other Kmtyw languages and Mdw Ntr. Interpretations seems to be so varied when it comes to Mdw Ntr at times. Or I "think" this is what's being said. Instead of, I know what's be said. I have felt it like we're saying, "well you know how to add, subtract, multiply and divide, now let's take on calculus". We need to learn algebra, geometry and trigonometry before we get there.

I can see where you're coming from. I think that having familiarity with another Kmtyw language can certainly help, however mdw nTr is sufficiently complex that even this kind of preparation will not fully prepare you. mdw nTr is the second Kmtyw language that I studied, and I still find that translating certain texts can be a good challenge. Mind you this is after a decade of intermittent, rather than sustained study. I have experienced some leaps in my competency in the last 18 months.

[Agya Yaw]

You illustrate my point perfectly Brother. In that, Mdw Ntr is your second Kmtyw language you've studied and you still find it challenging. Probably more so than your first. It was much like my experience when moving on to calculus. Which is why I used that example above. I don't think anything can fully prepare you for Mdw Ntr.

[Heru Djet]

Agya Yaw;158399 wrote: You illustrate my point perfectly Brother. In that, Mdw Ntr is your second Kmtyw language you've studied and you still find it challenging. Probably more so than your first. It was much like my experience when moving on to calculus. Which is why I used that example above. I don't think anything can fully prepare you for Mdw Ntr.

Your mathematics analogy is a great one. My first Kmtyw  language was Kiswahili. Next was mdw nTr. My third was Twi. Of the three I've spent less time on the third, found the first to be the most accessible, and found the second to be the most challenging. So I agree, it might be reasonable to consider mdw nTr to be an area of advanced language study. I'd like to know what people who teach beginners think about this however. I have mdw nTr class in an hour, so I'll ask the instructor his views on this.

[Agya Yaw]

Heru Djet;158402 wrote: Your mathematics analogy is a great one. My first Kmtyw  language was Kiswahili. Next was mdw nTr. My third was Twi. Of the three I've spent less time on the third, found the first to be the most accessible, and found the second to be the most challenging. So I agree, it might be reasonable to consider mdw nTr to be an area of advanced language study. I'd like to know what people who teach beginners think about this however. I have mdw nTr class in an hour, so I'll ask the instructor his views on this.

I would expect folks like Baba Bonotchi and Bro. Dr. Mario Beatty to disagree with my thoughts. Another challenge to learning Mdw Ntr, but should not lessen anyone wanting to learn it, is the lack of speakers who are advanced conversant in it. Whether vocal or written. From my experience even those that are teaching it will acknowledge they have a long way to go in mastering it.

With Kiswahili & Twi, where I live, I would have to purposefully not want to find someone that is highly conversant in either.

[Tenkamenin]

I heard a prayer recited in Mdw Ntr and it sounded very Semitic to me, is this a communicable language? I haven't heard 2 people converse in this language.

[Agya Yaw]

Tenkamenin;158426 wrote: I heard a prayer recited in Mdw Ntr and it sounded very Semitic to me, is this a communicable language? I haven't heard 2 people converse in this language.

I have heard yes on one hand, and no on the other. I have taken a few classes. And I don't know. In transliterations for english speakers vowels need to be put in to pronounce words. And the spelling of them doesn't seem to be universal among sources I've seen. As an example, I have seen htp spelled "hotep" & "hetep". I don't know which is right or if it matters. Or if using "e" or "o" changes the meaning of the word. Why not "i" or "u"? This is one question I always forget to ask. How do you know which vowel (in any language) to use at a given point? What is the methodology in choosing the vowels and its placement in transliterations? Is it based on another Kmtyw language that is most similar to Mdw Ntr?

More than any other language I have come across I flat out shy away from using it (outside of htp/htpu, sn, snt) since I quite honestly don't know if anyone has it right yet. Opinions seem widely varied in certain areas. I even know some people that try to pronounce words without using vowels.

Overall, I think we need more time to figure it all out. And in figuring it out, mistakes and reinterpretations are going to be and need to be made.

To be transparent, perhaps my opinion is based on too much ignorance of the language. (shrug)

[Ɔbenfo Ọbádélé]

Agya Yaw;158397 wrote: This is one of the reasons why I'd advise learning another Kmtyw language first rather than moving directly to Mdw Ntr. We need to understand cultural under/overpinnings to get a true idea what is being said. It seems from my observations we are still in the "trying to figure this thing out" mode with Mdw Ntr. It seems to me knowing another Kmtyw language(s) would greatly help one move beyond this stage. Since there is a cultural (linguistic to some degree) continuity between other Kmtyw languages and Mdw Ntr. Interpretations seems to be so varied when it comes to Mdw Ntr at times. Or I "think" this is what's being said. Instead of, I know what's be said. I have felt it like we're saying, "well you know how to add, subtract, multiply and divide, now let's take on calculus". We need to learn algebra, geometry and trigonometry before we get there.

I have a similar view in terms of people getting initiated into Kmtyw spiritual systems (Yorùbá, Akan, Guan, etc.) without even knowing how to pronounce a single word while mispronouncing all the words that they think they know. In a "traditional" setting, a person would go through a thounited snakesnd initiations before becoming an "initiate" (initiation into the lullaby system, recipes, etc.). In the modern context, it's an add-water-and-mix, have cash will travel type of thing going. To bring things back to the current discussion, while these things are problematic, I figure it's at least better than sitting around in church praying to imaginary white "people," for whatever that's worth.

[Agya Yaw]

Obadele Kambon;158436 wrote: I have a similar view in terms of people getting initiated into Kmtyw spiritual systems (Yorùbá, Akan, Guan, etc.) without even knowing how to pronounce a single word while mispronouncing all the words that they think they know. In a "traditional" setting, a person would go through a thounited snakesnd initiations before becoming an "initiate" (initiation into the lullaby system, recipes, etc.). In the modern context, it's an add-water-and-mix, have cash will travel type of thing going. To bring things back to the current discussion, while these things are problematic, I figure it's at least better than sitting around in church praying to imaginary white "people," for whatever that's worth.

Ampa. You and I have talked about this before. I know a few Akɔmfoɔ who don't know any Akan Twi beyond "meda ase". Or my knowledge of Akan Twi is greater than theirs. In my opinion they should be absolutely fluent or building towards being fluent.

Overall, I agree. Whatever aspect of Kmt we're trying to learn and hold onto is good, even if it's limited.

[Tenkamenin]

Agya Yaw;158434 wrote:

I have heard yes on one hand, and no on the other. I have taken a few classes. And I don't know. In transliterations for english speakers vowels need to be put in to pronounce words. And the spelling of them doesn't seem to be universal among sources I've seen. As an example, I have seen htp spelled "hotep" & "hetep". I don't know which is right or if it matters. Or if using "e" or "o" changes the meaning of the word. Why not "i" or "u"? This is one question I always forget to ask. How do you know which vowel (in any language) to use at a given point? What is the methodology in choosing the vowels and its placement in transliterations? Is it based on another Kmtyw language that is most similar to Mdw Ntr?

More than any other language I have come across I flat out shy away from using it (outside of htp/htpu, sn, snt) since I quite honestly don't know if anyone has it right yet. Opinions seem widely varied in certain areas. I even know some people that try to pronounce words without using vowels.

Overall, I think we need more time to figure it all out. And in figuring it out, mistakes and reinterpretations are going to be and need to be made.

To be transparent, perhaps my opinion is based on too much ignorance of the language. (shrug)

The Jews were able to modernize biblical Hebrew so we should be able to come to some consensus on Mdw Ntr. Hopefully there's an effort to do such a thing.

[Agya Yaw]

Tenkamenin;158439 wrote: The Jews were able to modernize biblical Hebrew so we should be able to come to some consensus on Mdw Ntr. Hopefully there's an effort to do such a thing.

From what I know that effort is in motion.

[Ɔbenfo Ọbádélé]

Tenkamenin;158439 wrote: The Jews were able to modernize biblical Hebrew so we should be able to come to some consensus on Mdw Ntr. Hopefully there's an effort to do such a thing.

I remember Dr. Beatty saying the same back in the day in Mdw Ntr class. Dr. Rkhty Amen has Mejat Wefa Conversation Book http://meduneter.com/rkhty-amen-e-books/

That said, have you ever heard a non-Yorùbá speaker try to pronounce kp or gb? It comes out like pw and bw. One thing that always struck me is the question of how reflective may our current understanding of even the basic uniliteral sounds be if filtered through the lens of eureurasian languages and approximations? Even when, say, Coptic is compared, we also have to ask the question of how have thounited snakesnds of years of invasions changed the sound systems of these and other languages still found in the Nile Valley? These are issues that I'm confident we'll sort out in the coming years, but until then, I say go for it and do what you can do with what you have available now.

[Agya Yaw]

Obadele Kambon;159051 wrote: I remember Dr. Beatty saying the same back in the day in Mdw Ntr class. Dr. Rkhty Amen has Mejat Wefa Conversation Book http://meduneter.com/rkhty-amen-e-books/

That said, have you ever heard a non-Yorùbá speaker try to pronounce kp or gb? It comes out like pw and bw. One thing that always struck me is the question of how reflective may our current understanding of even the basic uniliteral sounds be if filtered through the lens of eureurasian languages and approximations? Even when, say, Coptic is compared, we also have to ask the question of how have thounited snakesnds of years of invasions changed the sound systems of these and other languages still found in the Nile Valley? These are issues that I'm confident we'll sort out in the coming years, but until then, I say go for it and do what you can do with what you have available now.

Seems like you agree with my premise that we should learn another Kmtyw language before getting serious about Mdw Ntr. Further, in Dr. Rkhty's book, that you reference above, there are 7 sounds she mentions as having no english equivalent. I wanted to get the audio files that accompanied the book but they seem to be unavailable. When I read that I wondered if these sounds have equivalents in another Kmtyw language?