Are all Black people in the united states either Akan or Yorùbá?-gctid53270

[Ɔbenfo Ọbádélé]

If not, how come these two tend to predominate in roots readings? What are the statistical chances and probabilities that all who are told they are one of these major two actually are one of the two? Are we just recipients of the legacies of Nana Dinizulu and Ọba Adéfúnmi I and as more Kmtyws come to find out more about other ethnic groups there will be a rise of those following Soninke spirituality or that of the Sereer, Vai, Mossi, Dagomba, etc? (i.e. the less sexy, popular or familiar ethnic groups that many, indeed, may have come from)

Secondly, what is the role of DNA testing in resolving some of the confusion over which specific place one can/should/will reconnect with for those who are interested in reconnection?

[Agya Yaw]

No, I don't believe all of us in the u.s. are either Akan or Yoruba. They're just the two systems that have taken a firmer root in the u.s. But if they are a way for us to travel back to Kmt spiritually, mentally and possibly physically, I'm all for it. I've always taken the position because of the Kmtyw diasporan experience in this hemisphere those Kmtyws can claim the whole continent (north, south, east and west).

The DNA test can help but even if I knew specifically what people I can from I wouldn't necessarily adopt those particular peoples cultural ways to the letter. I seriously doubt it would be just one group of people anyway. It would probably be a mix of West Kmtyw people. I already know one of those people, Fulani.

[Agbede]

That is an interesting question about the DNA test, because the way it works is that they either trace your matrilineal DNA (mitochondrial DNA, which only comes from your mother) or they look at markers on a man's (or a woman's brother's) Y-chromosome (which comes from men only) to trace your patrilineal DNA.

So what does that mean if you did the matrilineal search and it came back Yorùbá? If the Yorùbá follow so-called "patrilineal" decent then isn't there a contradiction between the cultural tradition and the so-called (euro) science?

And also, if you did the patrilineal search and it came back Akan, isn't there a contradiction for those who consider themselves exclusively Akan (who follow so-called "matrilineal" decent)? Like if you are "Akan" then your lineage would be traced through your abusua.

[Agbede]

Let's talk statistics. I am going off top with my data, being very conservative and making lots of general, but incorrect assumptions (like assuming the distribution of ethnicities was uniform), so if anyone has any more accurate date please share so we can update.

100,000,000 stolen Kmtyws
5% of stolen Kmtyws taken to u.s.
5,000,000 stolen Kmtyws taken to u.s.
50 different ethnic groups

So, in that first generation the probability that an Akan procreated with another Akan or a Yoruba with another Yoruba would be:
P = (1/50)*(~1/50) = 0.0004 = 0.04%

So (statistically speaking) there was only 0.04% chance that two Akan procreated together. This means that there was a 99.96% chance that Kmtyws from two different ethnic groups procreated together. So in that second generation the vast majority of Kmtyw would be "mixed" (i.e. multiple Kmtyw ethnicities). Since we know that our numbers followed an increasing trend we can assume that over the generations the Akan produced more Akan and the Yoruba produced more Yoruba, although both would have most likely been "mixed" with other ethnicities. So over a few centuries I would assert that our ethnic lineages/mixtures have become less and less homogeneous and more and more heterogeneous.

This is just like the principle of contaminant transport through a groundwater matrix in (groundwater hydraulics/hydrology) or the principle of osmosis in chemistry where concetrated contaminants (or solute) will eventually move towards equalization.

So to answer the question, there is a high probability that any given Black person in the u.s. has Akan or Yoruba ancestry, in addition to ancestry from the other 50 ethnicities that were forced here as well. But the probability that one's ancestry is only Akan or only Yoruba is basically zero.

Why if you go to an awo for roots reading they tell you you're Yoruba or if you go to an ɔkɔmfoɔ for roots reading they tell you you're Akan? Nananom se: wote faako a, wote wo deε so.

[Agya Yaw]

Akhu;53300 wrote: Let's talk statistics. I am going off top with my data, being very conservative and making lots of general, but incorrect assumptions (like assuming the distribution of ethnicities was uniform), so if anyone has any more accurate date please share so we can update.

100,000,000 stolen Kmtyws
5% of stolen Kmtyws taken to u.s.
5,000,000 stolen Kmtyws taken to u.s.
50 different ethnic groups

So, in that first generation the probability that an Akan procreated with another Akan or a Yoruba with another Yoruba would be:
P = (1/50)*(~1/50) = 0.0004 = 0.04%

So (statistically speaking) there was only 0.04% chance that two Akan procreated together. This means that there was a 99.96% chance that Kmtyws from two different ethnic groups procreated together. So in that second generation the vast majority of Kmtyw would be "mixed" (i.e. multiple Kmtyw ethnicities). Since we know that our numbers followed an increasing trend we can assume that over the generations the Akan produced more Akan and the Yoruba produced more Yoruba, although both would have most likely been "mixed" with other ethnicities. So over a few centuries I would assert that our ethnic lineages/mixtures have become less and less homogeneous and more and more heterogeneous.

This is just like the principle of contaminant transport through a groundwater matrix in (groundwater hydraulics/hydrology) or the principle of osmosis in chemistry where concetrated contaminants (or solute) will eventually move towards equalization.

So to answer the question, there is a high probability that any given Black person in the u.s. has Akan or Yoruba ancestry, in addition to ancestry from the other 50 ethnicities that were forced here as well. But the probability that one's ancestry is only Akan or only Yoruba is basically zero.

Why if you go to an awo for roots reading they tell you you're Yoruba or if you go to an ɔkɔmfoɔ for roots reading they tell you you're Akan? Nananom se: wote faako a, wote wo deε so.

Ampa! That's why I said I know one of my linkages. I'm sure I have at least a few more. I claim the whole continent. I can definitely claim West Kmt.

[Ɔbenfo Ọbádélé]

Akhu;53299 wrote: That is an interesting question about the DNA test, because the way it works is that they either trace your matrilineal DNA (mitochondrial DNA, which only comes from your mother) or they look at markers on a man's (or a woman's brother's) Y-chromosome (which comes from men only) to trace your patrilineal DNA.

So what does that mean if you did the matrilineal search and it came back Yorùbá? If the Yorùbá follow so-called "patrilineal" decent then isn't there a contradiction between the cultural tradition and the so-called (euro) science?

And also, if you did the patrilineal search and it came back Akan, isn't there a contradiction for those who consider themselves exclusively Akan (who follow so-called "matrilineal" decent)? Like if you are "Akan" then your lineage would be traced through your abusua.

These are good questions especially in relation to how identity is conceived of indigenously. What are your thoughts about the patrilineal ntorɔ system in relation to the Akan?

Akhu;53300 wrote: Let's talk statistics. I am going off top with my data, being very conservative and making lots of general, but incorrect assumptions (like assuming the distribution of ethnicities was uniform), so if anyone has any more accurate date please share so we can update.

100,000,000 stolen Kmtyws
5% of stolen Kmtyws taken to u.s.
5,000,000 stolen Kmtyws taken to u.s.
50 different ethnic groups

So, in that first generation the probability that an Akan procreated with another Akan or a Yoruba with another Yoruba would be:
P = (1/50)*(~1/50) = 0.0004 = 0.04%

So (statistically speaking) there was only 0.04% chance that two Akan procreated together. This means that there was a 99.96% chance that Kmtyws from two different ethnic groups procreated together. So in that second generation the vast majority of Kmtyw would be "mixed" (i.e. multiple Kmtyw ethnicities). Since we know that our numbers followed an increasing trend we can assume that over the generations the Akan produced more Akan and the Yoruba produced more Yoruba, although both would have most likely been "mixed" with other ethnicities. So over a few centuries I would assert that our ethnic lineages/mixtures have become less and less homogeneous and more and more heterogeneous.

This is just like the principle of contaminant transport through a groundwater matrix in (groundwater hydraulics/hydrology) or the principle of osmosis in chemistry where concetrated contaminants (or solute) will eventually move towards equalization.

So to answer the question, there is a high probability that any given Black person in the u.s. has Akan or Yoruba ancestry, in addition to ancestry from the other 50 ethnicities that were forced here as well. But the probability that one's ancestry is only Akan or only Yoruba is basically zero.

Why if you go to an awo for roots reading they tell you you're Yoruba or if you go to an ɔkɔmfoɔ for roots reading they tell you you're Akan? Nananom se: wote faako a, wote wo deε so.

How would you factor in number of generations in the u.s.? i.e. those who were there from 1619 or so vs those who arrived in 1859-60 on the Clotilde? Also something like the more recent Yorùbás after the breakup of Ọ̀yọ́ vs those who were from other ethnicities that had been there longer. I think the point of more and more heterogenous is a strong one across the board, especially for those who have been there longer. Nkontompo de mfeɛ apem tu kwan a...

Yaw Asare Aboagye;53271 wrote: No, I don't believe all of us in the u.s. are either Akan or Yoruba. They're just the two systems that have taken a firmer root in the u.s. But if they are a way for us to travel back to Kmt spiritually, mentally and possibly physically, I'm all for it. I've always taken the position because of the Kmtyw diasporan experience in this hemisphere those Kmtyws can claim the whole continent (north, south, east and west).

The DNA test can help but even if I knew specifically what people I can from I wouldn't necessarily adopt those particular peoples cultural ways to the letter. I seriously doubt it would be just one group of people anyway. It would probably be a mix of West Kmtyw people. I already know one of those people, Fulani.

I hear you on the utilitarian approach to the question as pathways back to Kmt. I, personally think that where we start will not be where we end, in this regard. I also think our weakness (in reference to lack of ability to point out a fragment and tie oneself to that) is also our strength. If Kmtyws on the continent (or anywhere for that matter) had the Kmtyw-worldwide view, we'd be in an entirely different situation.

Would you be an advocate of taking the best from various groups? If so, where does the role of practicing some type of Kmtyw cultural system? Is that possible in the patchwork quilt approach?

[Agya Yaw]

Obadele Kambon;53321 wrote: I hear you on the utilitarian approach to the question as pathways back to Kmt. I, personally think that where we start will not be where we end, in this regard. I also think our weakness (in reference to lack of ability to point out a fragment and tie oneself to that) is also our strength. If Kmtyws on the continent (or anywhere for that matter) had the Kmtyw-worldwide view, we'd be in an entirely different situation.

Would you be an advocate of taking the best from various groups? If so, where does the role of practicing some type of Kmtyw cultural system? Is that possible in the patchwork quilt approach?

I might get a bit long-winded with this response, we'll see.

My approach I look at as putting the pieces back together again. It's one of the main reasons I why I promised myself I'll be conversational in 3-4 Kmtyw languages in the next 10 years. Through learning these languages (Akan, Kiswahili, Mdu Ntr, and either Yoruba or something from the south Shona/Kikongo) I will learn the systems of those respective groups to a great degree. I think those in the diaspora are in that unique position I often mention, putting our people together since we are those scattered bits thrown to the wind. And those on the continent can show diasporans really how we once were/are and we can inform them on our enemies (primarily eureurasiaans).

One of my cousins asked me where I wanted to visit first on the continent. My answer was anywhere. It doesn't matter. He got so caught up with me talking about Ghana, me having an Akan name, my children having Akan names and me learning Akan, he said "I'm visiting Ghana because I think that's where we're from." I told him "don't get caught up in that just go wherever when you have the chance. What specific people we're from may never be fully revealed so just pick a place and plan to go." Or as we're discussing here, it could be multiple peoples.

A friend of mine took a different approach to the name change, he took names from different people in different regions of the continent, a Pan-Kmtyw approach.  I believe we need to unify cultural systems as best we can. This is a new time in that those scattered bits are re-forming as a whole but that does not mean the whole will be or needs to be exactly the same as before it was broken up. It's time to seriously to put Cheikh Anta Diop thesis, the cultural unity of our people to practice. I think studying Kemet can help because no one can claim hegemony over that cultural/society/system currently.

So in summation those in the diaspora can drive the amalgamation of our peoples and those on the continent can teach us the finer points of the various individual cultural groups. And together we can all look at and study Kemet to fuse ourselves together. This is a high order but it's something that must be done.

[Ɔbenfo Ọbádélé]

Yaw Asare Aboagye;53397 wrote: I might get a bit long-winded with this response, we'll see.

My approach I look at as putting the pieces back together again. It's one of the main reasons I why I promised myself I'll be conversational in 3-4 Kmtyw languages in the next 10 years. Through learning these languages (Akan, Kiswahili, Mdu Ntr, and either Yoruba or something from the south Shona/Kikongo) I will learn the systems of those respective groups to a great degree. I think those in the diaspora are in that unique position I often mention, putting our people together since we are those scattered bits thrown to the wind. And those on the continent can show diasporans really how we once were/are and we can inform them on our enemies (primarily eureurasiaans).

One of my cousins asked me where I wanted to visit first on the continent. My answer was anywhere. It doesn't matter. He got so caught up with me talking about Ghana, me having an Akan name, my children having Akan names and me learning Akan, he said "I'm visiting Ghana because I think that's where we're from." I told him "don't get caught up in that just go wherever when you have the chance. What specific people we're from may never be fully revealed so just pick a place and plan to go." Or as we're discussing here, it could be multiple peoples.

A friend of mine took a different approach to the name change, he took names from different people in different regions of the continent, a Pan-Kmtyw approach.  I believe we need to unify cultural systems as best we can. This is a new time in that those scattered bits are re-forming as a whole but that does not mean the whole will be or needs to be exactly the same as before it was broken up. It's time to seriously to put Cheikh Anta Diop thesis, the cultural unity of our people to practice. I think studying Kemet can help because no one can claim hegemony over that cultural/society/system currently.

So in summation those in the diaspora can drive the amalgamation of our peoples and those on the continent can teach us the finer points of the various individual cultural groups. And together we can all look at and study Kemet to fuse ourselves together. This is a high order but it's something that must be done.

Those are solid personal goals and we're in agreement about the potential functionality of Kmt, in that regard. What substantive steps are you taking on the language learning?

[Agya Yaw]

Obadele Kambon;53653 wrote: Those are solid personal goals and we're in agreement about the potential functionality of Kmt, in that regard. What substantive steps are you taking on the language learning?

Hitting the books so to speak with far more seriousness than ever before. (And regretting I cut my off initial learning of Twi 10+ yrs ago.)

Learning the Twi verb tenses and pronouns better is progress for me, since at least if I don't know the root word at least I know the verb tense. I'm finding it helps me piece things together somewhat. General vocab will come with time and practice.

This time next year I'll be conversational to the point if I don't know what's said I can ask in Twi "what was that you said?" and understand the answer and go with it in Twi. And be able to listen to Asempa 94.7 FM and not be totally lost. At least that's the plan.

[Ɔbenfo Ọbádélé]

Yaw Asare Aboagye;53654 wrote: Hitting the books so to speak with far more seriousness than ever before. (And regretting I cut my off initial learning of Twi 10+ yrs ago.)

Learning the Twi verb tenses and pronouns better is progress for me, since at least if I don't know the root word at least I know the verb tense. I'm finding it helps me piece things together somewhat. General vocab will come with time and practice.

This time next year I'll be conversational to the point if I don't know what's said I can ask in Twi "what was that you said?" and understand the answer and go with it in Twi. And be able to listen to Asempa 94.7 FM and not be totally lost. At least that's the plan.

Sounds like a good plan. Let me know how I can assist.

[Agbede]

Obadele Kambon;53321 wrote: These are good questions especially in relation to how identity is conceived of indigenously. What are your thoughts about the patrilineal ntorɔ system in relation to the Akan?

I think it adds good balance to the abusua system. I heard someone use the term "twinlineal" to describe many Kmtyw systems of decent (ascent). I think that describes the system better.

Obadele Kambon wrote: How would you factor in number of generations in the u.s.? i.e. those who were there from 1619 or so vs those who arrived in 1859-60 on the Clotilde? Also something like the more recent Yorùbás after the breakup of Ọ̀yọ́ vs those who were from other ethnicities that had been there longer. I think the point of more and more heterogenous is a strong one across the board, especially for those who have been there longer. Nkontompo de mfeɛ apem tu kwan a...

That's part of the flaw in my reasoning, that I didn't take that into account. But generally speaking, I would think that those Kmtyws would still be miscegenation into a thoroughly "mixed" Kmtyw group. How do you see it?

[Ɔbenfo Ọbádélé]

Yaw Àgbẹ̀dẹ;53880 wrote: I think it adds good balance to the abusua system. I heard someone use the term "twinlineal" to describe many Kmtyw systems of decent (ascent). I think that describes the system better.

That's part of the flaw in my reasoning, that I didn't take that into account. But generally speaking, I would think that those Kmtyws would still be miscegenation into a thoroughly "mixed" Kmtyw group. How do you see it?

I think there's definitely mixes in there although i wonder about attraction. Like would a person, once the opportunity presented itself, be more attracted to someone of the same ethnic group? Like for me, there are certain 'looks' that, while I may appreciate, I may not be attracted to. Sometimes I wonder about historical ethnic groupings in relation to natural attraction (not to mention proximity of certain groups being dropped off in the same area being skilled laborers working on a particular crop or in a particular industry). Like would you subconsciously be attracted to someone from your same ethnic group, without perhaps knowing that they are or why the attraction exists. When I speak of attraction, I'm speaking about physical, but also in other ways in terms of retentions or other things we may identify with subconsciously in a mate.

 I think the prevalence of Yorùbá expressions in various places throughout the diaspora is because they were among the last waves from the continent so other Kmtyws looked to them for their most recent connection to the motherland. The end result being that folks who may not have been Yorùbá ethnically may have identified with it as "Kmtyw" so to speak. Similar to Akan in other places. I would think other preexisting groups would keep or meld expressions of their own cultures but in other ways, may come to identify with (or on the other side reject) the subsequent Kmtyws due to their connection to the continent and through identifying with them as representatives of Kmt in a larger sense.

[Agya Yaw]

Yaw Àgbẹ̀dẹ;53880 wrote: I think it adds good balance to the abusua system. I heard someone use the term "twinlineal" to describe many Kmtyw systems of decent (ascent). I think that describes the system better.

That's part of the flaw in my reasoning, that I didn't take that into account. But generally speaking, I would think that those Kmtyws would still be miscegenation into a thoroughly "mixed" Kmtyw group. How do you see it?

Obadele Kambon;57889 wrote: I think there's definitely mixes in there although i wonder about attraction. Like would a person, once the opportunity presented itself, be more attracted to someone of the same ethnic group? Like for me, there are certain 'looks' that, while I may appreciate, I may not be attracted to. Sometimes I wonder about historical ethnic groupings in relation to natural attraction (not to mention proximity of certain groups being dropped off in the same area being skilled laborers working on a particular crop or in a particular industry). Like would you subconsciously be attracted to someone from your same ethnic group, without perhaps knowing that they are or why the attraction exists. When I speak of attraction, I'm speaking about physical, but also in other ways in terms of retentions or other things we may identify with subconsciously in a mate.

 I think the prevalence of Yorùbá expressions in various places throughout the diaspora because they were among the last waves from the continent so other Kmtyws looked to them for their most recent connection to the motherland. The end result being that folks who may not have been Yorùbá ethnically may have identified with it as "Kmtyw" so to speak. Similar to Akan in other places. I would think other preexisting groups would keep or meld expressions of their own cultures but in other ways, may come to identify with (or on the other side reject) the subsequent Kmtyws due to their connection to the continent and through identifying with them as representatives of Kmt in a larger sense.

@Yaw Àgbẹ̀dẹ & @Obadele Kambon...I like what you Brothers are saying but I think you two may be getting so deep that we are getting lost in the fact that many of us will never know specifically what group we came from. Ultimately in terms of Re-Kmtywization any connection is better than having none. That's why I always tell our people just pick any Kmtyw system. We in the diaspora are in the position that we can do that and make those connections to our other systems, bringing wholeness hopefully. Where our folks on the continent would have a tougher time doing that because their lineage is intact and that particular lineage has been ingrained in them since birth.

[Agbede]

Obadele Kambon;57889 wrote: I think there's definitely mixes in there although i wonder about attraction. Like would a person, once the opportunity presented itself, be more attracted to someone of the same ethnic group? Like for me, there are certain 'looks' that, while I may appreciate, I may not be attracted to. Sometimes I wonder about historical ethnic groupings in relation to natural attraction (not to mention proximity of certain groups being dropped off in the same area being skilled laborers working on a particular crop or in a particular industry). Like would you subconsciously be attracted to someone from your same ethnic group, without perhaps knowing that they are or why the attraction exists. When I speak of attraction, I'm speaking about physical, but also in other ways in terms of retentions or other things we may identify with subconsciously in a mate.

 I think the prevalence of Yorùbá expressions in various places throughout the diaspora because they were among the last waves from the continent so other Kmtyws looked to them for their most recent connection to the motherland. The end result being that folks who may not have been Yorùbá ethnically may have identified with it as "Kmtyw" so to speak. Similar to Akan in other places. I would think other preexisting groups would keep or meld expressions of their own cultures but in other ways, may come to identify with (or on the other side reject) the subsequent Kmtyws due to their connection to the continent and through identifying with them as representatives of Kmt in a larger sense.

I can get with that. I would also add the Bakôngo to the list of groups with a prevalence of expression in various places throughout the diaspora - Gullah/Geechee, n.a.

Yaw Asare Aboagye;57959 wrote: @Yaw Àgbẹ̀dẹ & @Obadele Kambon...I like what you Brothers are saying but I think you two may be getting so deep that we are getting lost in the fact that many of us will never know specifically what group we came from. Ultimately in terms of Re-Kmtywization any connection is better than having none. That's why I always tell our people just pick any Kmtyw system. We in the diaspora are in the position that we can do that and make those connections to our other systems, bringing wholeness hopefully. Where our folks on the continent would have a tougher time doing that because their lineage is intact and that particular lineage has been ingrained in them since birth.

No doubt. For me this is the ultimate conclusion.

[Ɔbenfo Ọbádélé]

This was a very good discussion.

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